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Bigots, Idiots, and Hypocrites   

   Posted by quincy0191  Promoted 116 days 4 hours ago  4085 views  editorial  

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The debate over gay marriage has raged for several years now, with new laws or new bans garnering mass media attention. As a California resident (and more specifically, a South Bay resident) I’m in close enough proximity to the “gay capital” of San Francisco for this to be a persistent and important issue. In fact, a challenge to the recently-passed Prop 8, which banned same-sex marriage in California six months after a court decision legalized it, has already been accepted by a federal court. Though not a personal issue for me (I don’t have any close friends or family who are gay), I still feel that the denial of marriage equality is an important and often undervalued issue; it receives plenty of media attention, but in fifty years, when it has been legalized for decades, we will wonder how we could have thought it was a sin.

Basically, I feel that gays are the new blacks: a large minority which is openly discriminated against (not just in the marriage arena, but also in regard to the armed forces and in social situations), a slap in the face of the Constitution and the provisions which are not supposed to “make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws” (14th Amendment).

In other words, we are not supposed to infringe upon the privileges or liberties of our citizens without due process of law (this is why felons can’t vote; they’ve already had their due process). Marriage is a privilege and a liberty which gay people cannot enter into on their own terms despite not having been charged with any offense. Gays can marry members of the opposite sex, of course, but that precludes them from being able to marry and support the person they love (which is kind of the point of marriage), while affording that right to straight people. That’s discrimination, pure and simple, and it’s a pretty clear violation of the Constitution.

This issue is also one of the few where I feel the opposition is just wrong. Typically I can understand the position of others; you don’t want socialized medicine because it can lead to bureaucratic inefficiency and fewer exemplary hospitals. I understand that. I don’t agree with it, but I understand it. However, I think that gay marriage opponents are entirely wrong, and typically fall into one of three categories: the bigot, the idiot, and the hypocrite.

The Bigot

The Bigot is easy to spot. This is the one who is against gay marriage for the same reason he’s against being gay: it’s wrong, evil, sinful, subhuman, inferior, or whatever. This guy is typically also an idiot and an Idiot, but his bigotry overrides that (and being an Idiot is not a requirement). He just plain doesn’t like gay people or the gay lifestyle or gay anything, even used with the meaning “happy”. He’s also difficult to reason with or persuade; the best method of dealing with him is probably giving up, because he’s not going to change his views for anyone except Jesus. And Jesus coming back to tell him what an idiot he is probably a long shot.

This category is also the reason I say that gays are the new blacks. Fifty years ago, this guy was The Racist, who didn’t want his kids going to school with black kids, didn’t want blacks marrying whites, didn’t want blacks to have anything other than a step up from slavery (and would likely go back to that if he could). That is an extreme, of course (but it does exist, for both gays and blacks), and there are varying levels of the Bigot, from the absolute hatred to the mild dislike to the guy who is fine with gays, he just doesn’t want them to marry each other (this still falls under the category of the Bigot, as there is no rationale behind the stance, just a belief that gays shouldn’t get married because they’re gay, or because “marriage is between a man and a woman”, which is discrimination).

The Idiot

The Idiot is slightly less obvious than the bigot, and slightly easier to reason with. The most common example of this is the “Gay marriage shouldn’t be legalized because being gay is a choice” which many people will tell you is incorrect. This is a popular position, which surprises me quite a bit. It seems like it could be easily solved by finding a gay person and asking them. There’s really no reason to lie, unless they’ve all cooked up a vast conspiracy and falsified data to convince everyone that being gay isn’t a choice, and therefore argue that banning gay marriage is discrimination. It also seems that straight people could ask themselves: “Did I choose to be straight?” to which the answer would very likely be “No” and therefore extrapolate that gays also did not choose to be gay. There are some gays who say that being gay is a choice, but they are a minority, and several studies which I can’t find seem to contradict that idea.

Therefore, given the consensus in the gay community that being gay is not a choice, the backup from SCIENCE! on this idea, and the fact that there seems to be a correlation between “Being gay is a choice” believers and being religious (which tends to lead to dogmatic belief over malleable theory), it’s safe to say that this argument can be put to rest, and call those who still believe it Idiots.

There are plenty of others who fall into the Idiot category, of course, and plenty more who straddle the line between Bigot and Idiot. “Marriage is between a man and a woman” straddles the line. It combines an ignorance of history (many non-Western cultures accept or accepted homosexuality and several pre-Christian Western cultures, such as the Romans and Greeks, accepted homosexuality) and law (marriage to the state is a contractual union, and therefore should not be subject to the participants’ gender) with the idea that people who want to marry members of the same sex are breaking some sort of natural law and are therefore “wrong”.

There is a sort of subgroup here, the Ignoramuses, the difference being that they simply haven’t seen the research or talked to the people, and therefore are uninformed rather than stupid. However, in my opinion those who decide to believe something without taking the time to question its validity (at which point you would discover the research and the people) are stupid. Believing in something stupid is just as stupid as believing in something smart without a reason.

Like I said, many Bigots are also Idiots (though their bigotry is infinitely more dangerous; sometimes an Idiot who is actually an Ignoramus can be persuaded through the use of facts and logic), though the two don’t have to occur together. When they do, it is typically much more difficult to reason with them; climbing a wall of stupid is hard enough without continuously being knocked off with outright hate.

The Hypocrite

The Hypocrite is the hardest group to convince, mostly because they’re already sure of their own tolerance. And they are typically tolerant. Of course, tolerant means “can put up with,” a definition that is a long way from acceptance, which is more along the lines of “to think of as normal”. Acceptance is the ultimate goal here; there is no reason why a gay person should be in any way incapacitated or even inconvenienced due to their sexuality. But the Hypocrite hasn’t quite taken that leap yet.

Instead, they are typically focused on one of these reasons, though other arguments are brought up. I need not repeat any of the anti-gay marriage arguments given in that piece, nor the excellent reasons why they are crap. Most of the Hypocrite’s arguments are not focused on the idea that being gay is morally wrong or even unnatural (unlike the Bigot or the Idiot, who typically believe that there is something inherently wrong with being gay); as I said, they are tolerant of gays. They simply believe that gay marriage will result in undesirable consequences, without stopping to realize that all of these consequences have already occurred through the various forms heterosexual relationships can take.

This is why they’re a Hypocrite: they profess tolerance (usually) and claim they have nothing against gays, yet are clearly willing to break the rules for heterosexuals and not for homosexuals. That is hypocrisy, pure and simple, and the practice of it is resulting in discrimination. What’s worse is that the people who do it typically don’t even see it as discrimination, just an attempt to avoid certain outcomes; in this way, they are possibly even more dangerous than the Bigot, who is typically too stupid to convince anyone not indoctrinated into the idea that being gay is wrong, or the Idiot, who is also perfectly willing to openly discriminate against gays. The Hypocrite, on the other hand, will smile to your face and stab you in the back. Whether consciously or unconsciously (more likely the latter), the Hypocrite discriminates, and unconscious discrimination may be the worst kind.

I’ve presented this argument to a number of people, at least one of whom is quite a bit smarter than me, and none of them could get around it. That’s not to say that it doesn’t have holes, but I feel these three groupings encompass nearly every person who is against gay marriage and systematically refutes each of them.

I should note that while I believe gay marriage should be legalized throughout the country (and truly, the world), I realize that not everyone is going to agree with me just because I can present a logical argument (especially not the Bigots) and I have run across people who are perfectly fine with being defined as a Bigot, and will cling to their position. They accept being a Bigot, which I find distasteful, but hey, it’s their life (until it starts to affect other people’s lives).

Anyway, though I feel this system is mostly complete, I’d like to hear what you guys can come up with to try and poke holes in it, or otherwise amend it. My goal is to get this as nearly bulletproof as possible so when those damned Christian conservatives come back I can continuously laugh at their idiocy.





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LiLBiGD1Ck, on 11/24/2009 4:15:07 PM
Total Posts: 407, Joined: 2/10/2008
woh too much data.

Anyways, i'm not pro-gay marriage, just like i'm not pro-straight marriage. I'm neutral. I don't WANT gays to get married, i just don't give a fuck if they do. It doesn't affect me in the slightest.
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GaaaaaH, on 11/24/2009 6:17:11 PM
Total Posts: 1983, Joined: 7/20/2007
I think one of the main problems people have is the use of the word 'marriage'.

Watch how a change in teminology changes the view of people
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friedmeat, on 11/24/2009 9:27:42 PM
Total Posts: 131, Joined: 5/23/2008
your a fool to agree to gay marriage,if you happen to have a friend or an ex lover the equal rights laws can affect us hetros,discimination against the working man once again,it makes it much easier for someone from the past to sue you,you have been warned.
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mmateri, on 11/24/2009 9:46:47 PM
Total Posts: 486, Joined: 9/22/2007
collect all the fags put them on an island, burn it...re-burn it later so as to make sure the disease can't spread
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Rikstah, on 11/24/2009 10:05:32 PM
Total Posts: 59, Joined: 6/4/2008
like the other guy said, I dont want gays to get married, but I dont give a shit either way
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quincy0191, on 11/24/2009 11:07:39 PM
Total Posts: 901, Joined: 4/14/2006
@LiLBiGD1Ck & Rikstah:

IMO, not caring is pro gay marriage. I don't have a particularly good reason why I group apathetics with supporters, other than not caring is basically saying it's okay, which is a position I'm fine with.

@GaaaaaH:

That's a big part of the problem, and a part that really pisses me off. You can structure a civil union to be exactly the same as marriage, but once you call it marriage, people get pissed; it's no different from the civil union, and so there's no reason to have a difference in terms. The problem is that separate but equal is inevitably unequal, as the Supreme Court said fifty years ago. But people ignore Brown v. Board and its relevance to this problem and say that separate but equal can be equal. Bullshit.

@friedmeat & mmateri:

I don't know if you're serious or not, and I hope you aren't (though I imagine you are). If you are, mmateri falls under the Bigot and the Idiot (yeah...killing all the gay people will eliminate homosexuality, because straight people can't have gay kids), but mostly the former. friendmeat seems like an Idiot, but I don't really understand what you're saying (which is the primary reason for your classification). Thanks for playing.
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joeblow521, on 11/25/2009 12:36:47 AM
Total Posts: 3, Joined: 4/11/2009
Oh boy, yet another editorial on how liberal ideas are super mega cool.

Honestly, I've wasted far too much time on this site responding to your bullshit Quincy. I think it's probably safe to guess that I stand at the exact opposite end of the spectrum from you on any issue you could come up with, but while I am neither lazy, dispassionate, nor uneducated in my beliefs, I do not feel it necessary to post about them incessantly.

However, I rarely feel your editorials are ever actually about a subject, that seems incidental.
More so, it usually goes like "Here is a social/political/moral topic, this is the stance I have taken on it, these are the reasons why I am beyond contestation, and everyone who disagrees with me is evil." Subject matter seems immaterial, you just seem to enjoy "proving" that your right by making a few flimsy points and then debasing the character of anyone who dare have dissenting opinion. Unfortunately for my time I sometimes feel it my obligation to disabuse you of this arrogant notion.

Lets add a fourth group to your list. Me, and the those I know who share my opinions. I'm a Catholic, so I am, as you might have guessed, against gay marriage. Why? Not because of bigotry, idiocy, or hypocrisy. I am against gay marriage because it is in contradiction with church doctrine, and because it is in direct contradiction with the teachings of the central text of my religion, the Bible. Now I bet I've already lost you by just saying that, but hear me out. I adhere to the doctrine of a church that encompasses 1/6th of the worlds population. Under the umbrella of christianity the number rises to 1/3rd. And I believe in the teachings of a book that is the central religious text (in whole or in part) for an even larger number than that. While you may still disagree it would take an epic helping of ego to completely dismiss the beliefs of 2 billion plus people as nonsense.

Now I have very little against gays on a personal level. I've had gay best friends, gay family members, gay coworkers, gay neighbors, gay babysitters, gay teachers. NYC may not be San Francisco but we're definitely not short on gay people and gay culture. The only real problem I've ever had with gay people is those among them who feel it is not only their right, but their duty to force their agenda and values on me while denigrating mine. It's a bullshit move, no matter who you are or what you believe.

When it comes to rights for gay people I'm all for em. Equal pay/employment etc. Recognitions of civil unions when it comes to employer benefits, hospital visits, legal matters, wills etc. However I cannot approve of either the lifestyle or gay marriage.

Believe me when I say I do not come by this easily. It's a hard to look at people I care about and not wonder why they don't have every right I do, or to say that their love or lifestyle is wrong or that they don't deserve everything I do. It would be much easier for me if I weren't Catholic, if I wasn't held to these beliefs. Religion is not buffet style though, you don't get to pick and choose. That is a major part of faith and religion though, sometimes you have to accept what you do not yet fully understand. (Though let me make this clear, this is not a blind acceptance, this is not a decision or belief reached without reflection, I am not suppressing a gut feeling and accepting like a sheep. The instinct is what's telling me that what I believe is right.) Now I am not a bigot, nor am I an idiot. I have come to decisions I've made and the beliefs I hold not by some easy path of blind faith or self righteousness. I believe what I believe and hold it against no one for having contradictory beliefs. I in no way think nor by any means imply that I can not be wrong and that others can not be right.

If you want to discuss hypocrisy though Quincy beware of treading on thin ice. At the begging of this article you say that gays are being discriminated against, in a way that is a slap in the face to the Constitution. Yet in "The ACLU Is (Almost) Always Right" http://shoutwire.com/comments/full/281468/The_ACLU_is_Almost_Always_Ri
ght, you practically applauded the ACLU for filing suit against some teachers and administrators who "allowed" prayer in a public school, leaving them facing possible criminal charges. Separation of church and state was never meant to trump freedom of religion. And while we are guaranteed freedom of religion we are not guaranteed freedom FROM religion. The separation of church and state was created with a simple intention, avoid theocracies and religious persecution, it was not created to have its meaning twisted to interpret it as banning prayer from public schools.

You've categorized all those against gay marriage as bigots, idiots, and hypocrites, leaving no room for anything else. But in "The Importance of Doubt" http://shoutwire.com/comments/full/285921/The_Importance_of_Doubt
you
use the black swan example, an anecdote about how people use to think all swans were white because they had only ever observed white swans. until the day they discovered black swans. You practically used the black swan example as an argument against religion. HOW?! It boggles my mind how you think you can apply a story who's moral is "all that we have seen is not all that there is" and use it against religion, the embodiment of that ideal, and still claim it to be logic.

I thoroughly believe in discussion and debate. Intelligent discussion is one of the more redeeming qualities of man. I also understand that when focused too sharply debate can become far too personal, and what should be give and take with an interest in learning and broadening your mind becomes more about attack and defense and crushing your opponent. The social, moral, political and scientific questions of our day are some of the most important and interesting of any time in our history and it is in the discussion and debate of these issues that society will shape itself, hopefully continuing our evolution, our growth, and our knowledge as a species. I find it very exciting, which is why I try to educate myself in my beliefs and to keep an open mind when others are trying to educate me about theirs. Learning something new, changing your ideas, it isn't about being right or wrong, it's about the search for the truth and for understanding.

Quincy, you contribute nothing with these editorials. It's self indulgent crap. You didn't write this express an opinion, but to scold others for having a different one. It isn't about teaching or providing reasonable arguments to convince others to your way of thinking. "My goal is to get this as nearly bulletproof as possible so when those damned Christian conservatives come back I can continuously laugh at their idiocy." All this effort, energy and time wasted all because you want to crap on people who don't share your opinion, all in an article about how intolerant people are assholes, way to go.


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Immaculate1, on 11/25/2009 3:37:28 AM
Total Posts: 8002, Joined: 7/16/2006
Who cares how gays get their 'love' or comfort. There is only one reason our species has developed sex and that's for reproduction.

Two gays can't reproduce. It as simple as that.

Our society has set up a whole set of customs, social rules and laws to facilitate and accommodate this whole reproductive system on which the health, prosperity and future of our society is based. Allowing people in non-reproductive relationships like gays to make the same claims on resources as reproductive couples (man and woman) is detrimental to our society.

Sex is meant by nature as the exchange of genetic material, and nothing else. If there is no exchange of genetic material there is no sex, and rubbing your penis against another guys asshole is just as fruitful as rubbing it against a rock or sticking it in a vacuum cleaner. If we don't legally recognise last two acts, why should we the first.
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synthesis, on 11/25/2009 5:13:47 AM
Total Posts: 129, Joined: 5/23/2009
@Joblow

Thank you for taking the time to write all that. It was the most intelligent and insightful comment I have read on shoutwire for quite some time.

To be completely honest, I have not yet been able to determine a stance on gay marriage. There is legitimacy to the claims by both parties.

Regardless of their reasons, gay people conduct a life that is abstracted from conventional life. Our sexual orientation is a trait that permeates every aspect of our existance. For such a broad swathe of common ground to be swept away renders the gay community somewhat ostracised. Regardless of how far we have come as a tolerant society, the gay community will always bear that marked difference. Marriage is both a spiritual recognition of the bond between people, and the state sanctioning the joining of two members of society. It is understandable then that gay people crave the legitimacy that marriage affords hetero relationships. They simply wish to feel validated within the lives they lead. I can respect that.

The church sees marriage in a much different light however, with the more balanced and understanding members displaying similar views to yourself. Marriage is, at its roots, a deepy christian and sacred ritual that has remained largely unchanged for most of civilisations history. The desire to preserve marriage as a holy rite is something that a more tolerant society would recognise.

Christianity has been such a large part of our governing bodies throughout history that since the seperation of church and state, has left some traditions the property of both. Marriage is no longer the under the sole dominion of the church, as the state has long recognised the economic merits and the social stabilising effect that marriage brings. Regardless of the true roots of the act, both the church and the state have claims on shaping what marriage means.

The decline of Christianity was a result of the masses rejection of the institution of christianity. Unfortunately, this has also led to a wholesale rejection of spirituality in general. Most people will now claim to be atheist and will reject even the simple philisophical act of achknowledging the possibility. That there exists the possibility of a greater purpose to our existance is not something that most people wish to explore. This has erroded much of the church's claim to the determination of marriage as a spiritual joining of two people.

As to whether I want to see gay marriage occur? I'm undecided. If I were christian, i'd be against it. If I were gay i'd be for it. If pushed, i'd probably vote against it. Not because I identify more with christians, but because as a society we have already abandoned much of our heritage in the pursuit of progress and our modern age. The christian institution of marriage has served us well throughout our history. We should seek to retain such traditions, if only as a salute to those that have gone before us.
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calvinien, on 11/25/2009 6:20:29 AM
Total Posts: 37, Joined: 9/23/2009
@joeblow

You'd actually fall under the stupid and hypocriticsal categories.

Stupid for allowing a group of octogenarian virgins (at least I hope their are still virgins.) decide your views on sex. Especially considering how the catholic church has been on the wrong side of just about every major human rights issue its been involved with.

Hypocritical for suggesting that your religious views should trump those of others. Juts because catholics have an issue with homosexuality, why should everyone else have to follow their lead? The scientologists hate psychology, should that be banned? The muslims hate pork and booze, should those be banned?

"Religion is not buffet style though, you don't get to pick and choose."

And the stupid just keeps on coming. Religion is NOTHING BUT. That's why there's 50 000 variants on the same idea, that's why there was vatican II, that's why you have priests instead of just saying "get the answers from the bible" because the church doesn't want people acting on those passages in the bible that okay slavery and rape and genocide. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a belief system (or even a religious belief at all) without cherry picking the things you want or can believe and leaving behind the things which are more obviously complete garbage.

And I love that bit wher eyou mention how hard it is for you to have these belifs knowing they cause people pain. I feel for you, I really do. Can you feel how sorry I am for this horrible ordeal you are going through? Oh if only there was an easy solution to it.


@Immaculate1

Because we still allow marriage between infertile couples and those who don't want children. Because marriage in its traditional form was a transfer of ownership from father to son and didn't include rights of women or minorities. Marriage changed to fit the times.

The procreation ideal hasn't been a part of it in a good long time.


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