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Nazis! (Or Not)  

   Posted by quincy0191  Promoted 66 days 14 hours ago  9906 views  editorial  

    Politics / US Politics  |   Comments 21 comments  | 

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World War II was one of the most significant events in human history, both in its impact on the then-present day and the shockwaves it has sent through history, mostly through the attempted genocide of the Jewish people, which killed approximately six million civilians. The Holocaust was a singular event; it wasn’t just another war, it wasn’t a repeated instance of human cruelty, it was one of the most concentrated acts of pure evil that’s ever occurred, so much so that the six million estimate was initially met with literal disbelief, because people didn’t think it was possible for one man to kill that many people in such a short period of time.

As the definitive act of cruelty in the modern era, the Holocaust has become the standard of evil, the measure against which large-scale villainy is compared, and nothing we’ve seen since has come close to it. And with the end of WWII only sixty years ago, the Holocaust is not a long-gone myth, but a real event which occurred in the lifetime of many people on this planet; it is fresh enough in our memory that we are still rightly terrified of it happening again, of a charismatic leader rising to power and gradually enacting more and more oppressive legislation in the name of economic recovery and national safety before committing unspeakable acts of terror against the population.

This necessary fear is unfortunately held by people who are not able to handle it, and fear in the wrong hands spreads, and becomes a disease that sickens people. Of course, all illnesses need an opportunity for exposure, a window through which they can sneak and spread and grow. Something like a terrorist attack on US soil, and two recessions in ten years following that event, both of which are tangentially related to it. Conveniently enough, we’ve been able to provide that, and look what’s happened.

This is nothing new. For the past ten years, we’ve had to endure idiot pundits who want their sound byte featured on the primetime news referencing famous dictators, from calling Obama a socialist, a communist, a Nazi (ironically ignoring the incompatibility of those terms), and just about everything short of a brain-sucking alien, to Democrats, from random Internet posters to prominent activists like George Soros calling Bush a Nazi (I should point out that Soros has some perspective; he was 13 years old and living in Hungary when the Nazis took military control of the country in 1944).

As the standard of evil, an instantly recognizable historical reference, “Nazi” has become a buzzword for the media and for people who don’t have the intelligence to accurately refute an argument; it’s easier to call someone a Nazi than to point out exactly why they’re wrong, and the association typically serves both purposes of immediately engendering animosity and not confusing the audience with a lot of actual thought. So we see it thrown around a lot; the Patriot Act is Bush being a Nazi, and healthcare reform is Obama being a Nazi, with no one actually explaining why the policies are similar or bothering to consider the strength of what they’re saying.

The last part is what bothers me the most, though it would be a bigger issue if the people listening to these idiots weren’t making the same mistake. Most of these people don’t really think about exactly what the Nazis did: they murdered six million innocent people entirely on the basis of their religion and ethnicity, not to mention a myriad of other war crimes and violent imperalism. By calling any politician who isn’t an outright racist (and there aren’t many of those around; the South isn’t what it used to be) a Nazi, you either have absolutely no sense of perspective or are seriously trying to equate the murder of six million people to tighter surveillance or government-funded healthcare. Either way, you have no business having a brain, much less a soapbox and millions of people listening to you.

I’m pretty liberal; I don’t like the Patriot Act, I didn’t like a lot of things that happened in the name of security during the Bush administration, and I don’t like lot of things that are happening in the name of security during the current administration. But nothing that’s been done so far even comes close to what happened sixty years ago; the government is becoming too invasive and controlling, and we’re gradually losing the liberties that make our country great. We’re nowhere near Germany in the 1930s, and unless Obama repeals term limits or eliminates the election process, installs himself as dictator, and begins rounding people up and sending them to concentration camps, let’s not get ahead of ourselves. The same thing could have been said of Bush five years ago, or at any point in his presidency, and the same should be said of the next president when his detractors start calling him a Nazi. Things suck right now, and they’ve sucked for almost a decade, but no one is being murdered by the government, so let’s keep some perspective before we start slinging epithets.





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KallinSaast, on 1/12/2010 9:21:24 AM
Total Posts: 1108, Joined: 10/16/2007
Apart from the obvious skinhead Neo-Nazis that we all know and love. I would say that Nazism/Fascism is a highly prevalent in the upper echelons of most governments. Although the majority of them don't let it be known to us "the idiot populous."
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Baphometslayer, on 1/12/2010 11:01:35 AM
Total Posts: 445, Joined: 5/5/2006
"The Great Leap Forward" in Communist China was the largest "genocide" ever. Wasn't exactly genocide it was just poorly executed economic policy that starved an estimated 30 million.


And personally, I feel the genocide of Native Americans was worse than the holocaust, but that's probably just my heritage talking.


In any matter it's nice to see that you're finally realizing that the government is overstepping it's bounds in this false "war on terror". We are literally breeding the terrorists that hate us so much.
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Kinderplatz, on 1/12/2010 1:38:54 PM
Total Posts: 573, Joined: 9/24/2007
"And personally, I feel the genocide of Native Americans was worse than the holocaust"

The American genocide of the Native American population actually did serve to help inspire Hitler to commit to his genocide against what he deemed to be undesirable. His feeling at the time was that if the Americans could get away with it, with no one really caring, then why shouldn't he be able to? His biggest mistake was invading Russia, Poland and France. If he hadn't done that he would have had free reign to purge Germany of all undesirables. Historical studies demonstrate countries which keep genocidal practices within their own borders are generally better tolerated by other nation-states. Breach those borders and they become a danger to the security of other nation-states and are then dealt with.

"but that's probably just my heritage talking."

No, that's just facts talking. "Native Americans" lived on the land from Alaska down through South America. You see that the Europeans came over here and pretty much had a field day to begin with and the killing hasn't really ever stopped. The Native populations have had to deal with oppressive conditions both before and after the imperial governments left. The new ones which arose to take their place really aren't all that much better.
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quincy0191, on 1/12/2010 2:49:21 PM
Total Posts: 942, Joined: 4/14/2006
@KallinSaast:

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the upper echelons of government are filled with Nazis/fascists (bearing in mind that those two terms do not carry the same connotations), or is that just conspiracy crap with no basis whatsoever? Because I don't buy the foil hat idea that the people aren't privy to what's going on; not all the investigative journalists have left to cover Paris Hilton and Britney Spears, and with the sheer size of our government there has to be at least a couple honest people in there.

@Baphometslayer:

I think the Holocaust was worse. The extermination of the Native Americans wasn't a genocide so much as a series of wars lasting hundreds of years, beginning with the Spanish against the Aztecs, and the Great Leap Forward was radically stupid, but it wasn't designed to kill anyone. The Holocaust, on the other hand, was the systematic and intentional murder of civilians, not a war or a plan to improve the economy. It was simple killing for no reason; the Native Americans died in the name of European expansion, the Chinese died in the name of economic expansion, but the Jews died in the name of hating Jews. That's obviously not to say that the Native American "situation" (don't you love it when people sugarcoat things by calling them situations instead of what they are?) or the Chinese "events" weren't horrible, but I do think the Holocaust was worse, even if it killed fewer people, simply because of the motivations behind it.

And I wouldn't say that I'm "just now" realizing that we're breeding the terrorists that want to kill us, because that should have been obvious to anyone with a brain since the initial colonization of the Middle East. It's not hard to see that our imperialism and our greed and our decadent culture piss people off; they piss me off, and I'm not even adversely affected by them as many so many countries and people are. I don't agree with them in the sense that I don't think we should be killed for our shortcomings, and that wasn't really the point of the ed, but okay.

Incidentally, this may be the first civil discourse we've ever had, and now that I think about it, I'm having a lot of reasonable discussions with people I used to scream at. I gotta stop being so nice; wouldn't want people to think I've gone all soft and gracious or I'll have to rule out politics as a career.
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Baphometslayer, on 1/12/2010 4:05:20 PM
Total Posts: 446, Joined: 5/5/2006
quincy0191 wrote:
@KallinSaast:

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the upper echelons of government are filled with Nazis/fascists (bearing in mind that those two terms do not carry the same connotations), or is that just conspiracy crap with no basis whatsoever? Because I don't buy the foil hat idea that the people aren't privy to what's going on; not all the investigative journalists have left to cover Paris Hilton and Britney Spears, and with the sheer size of our government there has to be at least a couple honest people in there.

@Baphometslayer:

I think the Holocaust was worse. The extermination of the Native Americans wasn't a genocide so much as a series of wars lasting hundreds of years, beginning with the Spanish against the Aztecs, and the Great Leap Forward was radically stupid, but it wasn't designed to kill anyone. The Holocaust, on the other hand, was the systematic and intentional murder of civilians, not a war or a plan to improve the economy. It was simple killing for no reason; the Native Americans died in the name of European expansion, the Chinese died in the name of economic expansion, but the Jews died in the name of hating Jews. That's obviously not to say that the Native American "situation" (don't you love it when people sugarcoat things by calling them situations instead of what they are?) or the Chinese "events" weren't horrible, but I do think the Holocaust was worse, even if it killed fewer people, simply because of the motivations behind it.

And I wouldn't say that I'm "just now" realizing that we're breeding the terrorists that want to kill us, because that should have been obvious to anyone with a brain since the initial colonization of the Middle East. It's not hard to see that our imperialism and our greed and our decadent culture piss people off; they piss me off, and I'm not even adversely affected by them as many so many countries and people are. I don't agree with them in the sense that I don't think we should be killed for our shortcomings, and that wasn't really the point of the ed, but okay.

Incidentally, this may be the first civil discourse we've ever had, and now that I think about it, I'm having a lot of reasonable discussions with people I used to scream at. I gotta stop being so nice; wouldn't want people to think I've gone all soft and gracious or I'll have to rule out politics as a career.


@Quincy

Interesting fact, "Genocide" was coined after WWII to explain the mass murdering of the Jews.

That being said we can argue all day about which was worse, but nothing will come of it. It's estimated there were 116 million Native's in North and Central America alone before the arrival of the Spaniards. I think that the Holocaust and the removal on Native's should both be regarded as equally bad. Honestly I'm fucking tired of hearing about the Holocaust. Nothing of use comes out of dwelling on an event, no matter how atrocious and heartbreaking, that happened over 7 decades ago. That sounds harsh, but it's true. Dwelling doesn't do shit, instead we should be concentrating on ending the genocide of our time, and there's plenty of it happening all around the world. Jews will continue to whine about it, despite the various reparations they received as well as their new pet lapdog, the US government which will bomb the shit out of any country that even passed wind in Israel's direction. Meanwhile the Natives are shoved on to reservations and given their own governments. They're citizens do however receive all the same benefits as US citizens. But, the largest Indian nation to date.....The Creek Nation....they're colleges specialize in two things........Indian Government Structure....and...CASINOS. I shit you not, but I just thought it might be funny for you to know that haha.

And yea, I got a little off-topic but you said that the Holocaust has had long lasting ramifications. And it has. Israel is probably the "root" cause of Muslim extremism, that's just imho anyway, I'm a firm believer in "blowback" personally.

Getting along is important. Sometimes I wonder if the left-right paradigm was created only to keep us babbling fools occupied while they slowly consolidate power. It sure seems to be the case each time the government switches power structure. The people you disagree with the most are normally the easiest to talk to.


Also regarding what Kallin said. I think people too broadly apply the term Nazi/fascist to people in government. I don't know if you've heard about what Tim Geitner did during his time with the NY Fed, but most of the cabinet members in the current administration are all big corporate insiders. It was mostly the same for the Clinton and Bush administrations too. People need to realize that these people are not fascist/nazis, they're merely greedy people with no interest in serving the people and representing their best interests.

Jesus I'm fucking rambling.
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synthesis, on 1/12/2010 5:11:09 PM
Total Posts: 160, Joined: 5/23/2009
Hate just for the sake of hating? Not really actually. Anti Semitism was a staple of life in Europe since the Romans destroyed Jeruselum. The semetic population that was driven out of the Judea and into Europe went on to make up around 10% of the Roman empires population. The jews did not assimilate, but they did thrive. This community of Jews spread out around Europe and gained more wealth and more power as time went on. Skip through the years of Christendom and you can begin to understand why anti Semitism developed. The jews were a large powerful and wealthy community that were not only heathen, but were attributed with the murder of Christ. They had a higher standard of living than most Europeans during this period. Then the great depression comes along. The jewish community had enormous control of the financial sector, and so were not only seen as a cause of the depression, but also were seen to weather it better. I'm not saying they deserved the holocaust, but I can understand why it happened. Every aspect of their lives could be perceived by the general population as being parasitic, despite that not entirely being the case.

The Germans were taking on the world. They had, what was perceived, as a parasitic race living among them. So they rounded them up and killed them. The only reason why Nazism is considered the greatest 'evil' that happened, is because a western power committed it. Other atrocities are barely considered.

The Chinese great leap forward? Oh, that was just an economic failure. Oops.

The Japanese war in China. The events in Nanking? Oh that's not evil, that's just how other cultures make war, right?

Kmer Rouge? They were not advanced enough. So they get a special dispensation for not knowing any better.

The Armenian genocide? Um…. Who are they again?

The soviet destruction of the Cossacks?

The list can go on and on and on. The only difference between the Nazis and these other fabulous moments in human history is that 60 years on it's only the western nations that still berate ourselves about it. The Japanese don't even know what they did in China, and yet have a victim complex about getting nuked. The Cambodians? No idea. The Russians aren't beating themselves up about the soviet atrocities.

The Jews are victims, the Nazis are evil, blah blah blah. Get over it.
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Rikstah, on 1/12/2010 7:00:35 PM
Total Posts: 60, Joined: 6/4/2008
@Quincy

Damn right, I'd have to agree with what you said.

But I'd also say the reason its perceived as the greatest evil that ever happened, is simply because it happened to the Jews (No im not an anti semite).

Basically they own hollywood and the media, so its easy for them to constantly remind us about the holocaust. Theres always some holocaust thing chucked in there, and its always talked up.

Worse things have happened to people, but worse things have never happened to the Jews, who, as I've said, have the power to constantly remind us about what happened to them.
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damasterwc, on 1/12/2010 8:16:57 PM
Total Posts: 631, Joined: 5/30/2006
london / wall street bankers (including prescott bush and george walker) and british royals backed hitler. they also back bush and obama. see also their hand in global warming and the failed one world dictatorship attempt at copenhagen. "banks" have been paid an absurd amount of "money" in an attempt to save the imperial central banking system. keynes himself said his economic policies would be best implemented under hitler because of those types of conditions. obama is continuing bush's legacy of stepping outside constitutional convention. how obvious do they need to be until you notice it?

edit: when i talk about nazi's i'm generally referring to fascists. i don't mean necessarily the leather boots and the sig heils; what i'm talking about is a type of banker centrist corporatism that spread across europe in the period before WW2.
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synthesis, on 1/12/2010 9:32:30 PM
Total Posts: 161, Joined: 5/23/2009
damasterwc wrote:
what i'm talking about is a type of banker centrist corporatism that spread across europe in the period before WW2.


You mean during the great depression?

The German economy had been smashed by WW1 and then further hamstrung by the treaty of versailles and then nailed by the great depression. The nazis turned a crippled nation into an economic giant. It is astounding to think that 20 years beforehand they were a conquered people. They completely turned their nation around within a few short years to become a war machine that took on the world and nearly won. They may have been fucked up, but they sure got shit done.
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Baphometslayer, on 1/12/2010 10:08:12 PM
Total Posts: 447, Joined: 5/5/2006
synthesis wrote:
damasterwc wrote:
what i'm talking about is a type of banker centrist corporatism that spread across europe in the period before WW2.


You mean during the great depression?

The German economy had been smashed by WW1 and then further hamstrung by the treaty of versailles and then nailed by the great depression. The nazis turned a crippled nation into an economic giant. It is astounding to think that 20 years beforehand they were a conquered people. They completely turned their nation around within a few short years to become a war machine that took on the world and nearly won. They may have been fucked up, but they sure got shit done.



I think his point was that their economic recovery was thanks in part to American banking giants and the financing they offered...
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